Rogue (4.x.x) - Cataclysm Discussion

Questions and discussion on class mechanics. Please post current patch in thread topic.

Re: Rogue (4.x.x) - Cataclysm Discussion

Postby Phauss » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:31 am

Blue Post, taken from MMO Champ. Interesting/Important things in yellow.:

Passive damage -- While the combat log says that you are doing a lot of auto attacking, it's not telling you the full story. A lot of what rogues have to manage (say SnD and Envenom) then boost your autoattacks or poison damage. If we changed SnD to instead be a separate dot for the same overall damage, all of a sudden your combat logs would show less "passive" damage. As long as good rogues can do better damage than bad rogues, we think it's fine.

Combat's mastery -- The big missing piece of the puzzle was that Main Guache was supposed to proc Combat Potency. Without that (which it now has), it is pretty lackluster.

20% melee / ranged haste buff -- This is something we're evaluating. It's a really serious buff for rogues and warriors particularly, to the extent that your dps drops significantly without it. This suggests we need to nerf the buff (in the same way we changed e.g. Curse of Elements from 13% to 8%) and buff affected classes to compensate. We just don't want the swing to be that big when you don't have it.

Mana reducing talents -- We just disagree that rogues are singled out here, though if you see some dps classes that can spend all of their points on dps and skip anything utiltiy related, please bring them up so we can evaluate them. It's always possible that the community (correctly or incorrectly) perceives a talent we intended to be optional utility as mandatory dps. (Source)

[...] Mana reducing talents = the OP was concerned about talents like Deadened Nerves that for PvE really translate into reducing the mana healers spend on heals. Apologies if I short-handed too much.

We want dps classes to consider these useful talents rather than just dismissing survival as the healers' jobs while they go into dps tunnel vision mode. The OP was expressing the concern that rogues had too many of these talents relative to other classes. I responded that I didn't think that was the case but players are welcome to point out other dps trees that don't match. (Source)


Viewing the source in this blue post yields some very interesting questions by the original poster. Definitely a few things to think about.
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Re: Rogue (4.x.x) - Cataclysm Discussion

Postby Phauss » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:08 am

Updated the assassination post with a rotation after playing around on the PTR's. The rotation is subject to change, of course, but with the energy return from Rupturing, I doubt it'll change much.

I've toyed around with Subtlety, and I must say, the efficiency from mob to mob is impressive. Couldn't get any realistic numbers from a target dummy, seeing as I have to have incoming combo points from party members and such. Subtlety on longer fights will be variable depending on group size, just like early on in Wrath. I don't believe it will be as gimped though. There will be things for a sub rogue to bring to a group.

To-do: Get some numbers, screenshots, and play around with a combat spec.

Blue post on MMO Champ. More stuff on passive damage, etc. They also talked about stunlocks, but it wasn't anything we haven't heard a million times by now. Just another rogue complaining about dimishing returns on stuns.

Auto attack and abilities
Imagine a rogue could do 80% of their damage just by right clicking on a target. That means that at best, you've got 20% of damage to play with to separate the best rogue in the world from the guy who just autoattacks. That's largely what we mean when we're concerned about too much damage coming from white attacks.

You can argue that Slice and Dice doesn't take much effort on the part of the rogue, but it does take some. Managing your energy and cooldowns takes a little more, and so on, until we reach a point where the best rogues in the world do significantly more damage than those who just autoattack and perhaps let Slice and Dice occasionally fall off.

I think viscerally, some players just don't like spending their resource on buffs. They want to convert it all into big numbers, because big numbers are fun. Those self buffs serve a purpose though. They help serve as a damage buffer. They provide a little bit of ramp up time. They account for one more ball you need to juggle to keep in the air. It wouldn't be hard to juggle just the one ball, but you're often asked to do a lot more than that. (Source)

Coincidentally, this is the same thread that was sourced in my earlier post. Ghostcrawler is just elaborating on some of his answers.
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Re: Rogue (4.x.x) - Cataclysm Discussion

Postby Forb » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:24 am

I assume you mean elaborating.

I thought I was retarded for not having ever heard that word in my life.
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Re: Rogue (4.x.x) - Cataclysm Discussion

Postby Phauss » Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:54 am

I did some testing on the PTR's with several versions of rotations for both Combat and Assassination specs and came out with some numbers for each rotation. The post for both specs are updated with the current High DPS rotation and numbers reflecting my results.
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Re: Rogue (4.x.x) - Cataclysm Discussion

Postby Phauss » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:09 am

So I came up with a possible assassination spec. It looks interesting enough to try out for raiding.
http://wowtal.com/#k=0tBIZWirl.a5o.rogue.3o7_kr

"Why spec into shorter Vanish/Blind/Cloak of Shadows instead of another 10% increased Mutilate damage?"

Vanish is still a damage-increasing cooldown in Cataclysm with our Overkill talent. By reducing the cooldown on Vanish from 3 minutes to 2 minutes, we have more uptime on the 30% energy regeneration from the talent. Now, I may be taking a step forward and two steps back by taking this talent, but it would be worth investigating.

Also, I'll update the Assassination post to reflect that we will be Backstabbing targets below 35%. Backstab has a higher crit chance through talents than Mutilate (about 15%) and it will return 30 energy on targets below 35% health with the Murderous Intent talent. Glyph of Backstab returns an additional 5 energy when Backstab crits, which will be almost always. That's a 25 energy Backstab. In the same amount of time it takes to get 3 combo points from a Mutilate crit, we could get 4 points from two Backtab crits. Higher Envenom uptime, less Rupture application, and 5 point finishers if RNG is in our favor (from Relentless Strikes in the Sub tree.)

I'll copy most of the above paragraph into the post to replace the one that says not to spec into Murderous Intent.
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